Talk:Kyratian

You can't even see the thing's face, and the most notable part of a Prime 1 space pirate is their absurdly massive upper torsos compared to their lower bodies, which this thing lacks. It has drills growing out of its back, which pirates lack, it has giant mechanical Doc Ock tentacles, and it has a needle-like arm cannon. It lacks shoulder rings, it has different feet, and it appears to have a shark fin on its head. It looks nothing like a pirate besides being purple and hunched, and its equipment is completely different and crazy. Dazuro 21:01, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Well, time passed. I don't see why the Space Pirates from Prime 1 would have the SAME equipment by then. Also, I got a good look at its face and it really does look like one, it even has antennae like the ones seen in Metroid Prime. Of course, I could be totally wrong about it even being a Space Pirate, but we'll find out in 9 days. Dr.Pancake 21:09, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

If you'd link to the trailer maybe we could settle this, but your picture is not even remotely piratey. Dazuro 21:13, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Here. It's not really a trailer actually, more like gameplay footage. I don't know why the person who wrote the page said it was a trailer. Dr.Pancake 21:18, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Btw, take a good look at it's face when it jumps down. Pause the video if you have to. Dr.Pancake 21:22, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

So, what's your feedback? I'm assuming since you're not responding means you still disagree. Dr.Pancake 22:14, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, had a lunchdate with some friends. Can't spend all my time needlessly debating nonexistant creatures from an unreleased videogame, now, can I? :D Anyway, yeah, I do still heartily disagree. I don't see the antennae at all, merely the shark fin, and the head shape isn't that unique that it screams space pirate to me. And again, it would have the bulky upper torso if it was meant to evoke that model. This thing isn't nearly topheavy enough. Dazuro 22:54, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

Here's an interesting thought: the ball-with-two-spikes device on this creature's back is a fairly distinctive piece of technology, but I have seen that shape before: it is the Space Jump upgrade! Does anybody else see the resemblence?--AdmiralSakai 00:53, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if you felt rushed, Dazuro but its as you said I can't spend all day waiting for a reply, lol. Anyway, on topic, well after looking at the face again it appears those "antennae" I saw were just horns on his helmet (if you can call it that), but still, his face looks very similar to a Space Pirate from Prime 1 and unlike the Ghalmanian which were also speculated to be Space Pirates, this guy actually uses equipment and for a creature to have equipment on must mean it has some sort of high intelligence. Seems a bit odd, don't ya think? And AdmiralSakai, it actually somewhat does. Why would a minor enemy have one of Samus upgrades? Hmmm, mini boss maybe? Dr.Pancake 04:57, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Well it's certainly possible for it to be a pirate-outfitted/modified/allied creature like Thardus or Draygon or something, but I still refute the idea that it's a pirate by race, much less a Tallonian-style one. That definitely does look like the Space Jump though. Interesting. Dazuro 06:07, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

That could be. Well, I really hope that they do show more than just one type of Space Pirates. Since Other M is very story based, that gives them an opportunity to explain why they're so many different types of Space Pirates. Are there more than one race? More than one Pirate Homeworld? Is the name Space Pirate even their species name or a nickname? Questions like those I'm hoping Other M will answer, well if they can... Dr.Pancake 06:58, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

All of those questions are already answered. The pirates are one race (--Prime, manga), they genetically modify themselves (--Super, Prime trilogy, manga), they have multiple homeworlds (--Super, Corruption), space pirate is the name of the race (--Prime, manga). Dazuro 08:14, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

lol, now I feel stupid. Well, I do remember the Prime manual mentioning the Pirates being one race and the Trilogy booklet saying "one of their homeworlds", but I want to see some in-game proof if possible and like I said since Other M is story based that gives them the chance to do so. As for the genetically modify part, that one is new to me. Huh, well I guess Nintendo had to come up with something, the fans were really starting to wonder whats the deal with them that they keep changing. Meh, I actually like it. The manga part, well you already know what I'm going to say about that, but you gave some game proof as well, so I'm glad you did that. Dr.Pancake 23:37, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Like it or not, it's considered canon for now as far as we know. But even if it wasn't, I had a second source for everything. :P I don't believe Prime's manual said anything like that, but in interviews with the designers Jones remarked how it was hard to make sure the pirates all looked different enough to be unique enemies but still felt like one coherent species, and they are referred to as a singular species in several scans. Dazuro 23:38, August 22, 2010 (UTC)

Yes I know its still canon, but like you said "for now". I'm hoping the game can at least retell the story in their own way. Dr.Pancake 23:45, August 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Its obviously a creature with a connection to the LBADL. The MarioGalaxy2433g5  { talk /contribs/Logs} 01:11, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Well Pancake, looks like you'll sort of get your wish (as far as explanation/consolidation of pirates goes). A new video on the website shows a pirate with silver armor, a scythe and a round exposed core-thing on its chest just like Echoes's troopers had, but all of that armor clearly put on a Fusion-style body. Further confirmation, it would appear, that the Prime variants were indeed just different outfits/equipments. Dazuro 23:10, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Was it on number 6 on the abilities section? Also, where did you hear about that? Is it already confirmed? And is the ULF 53 actually one of those Prime variants? If that's the case than maybe the LBADL also has something to do with them genetically modifying themselves, hmmm. Dr.Pancake 01:23, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thats a totally seperate creature from this one. The MarioGalaxy2433g5  { talk /contribs/Logs} 01:28, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Hear about what? And I clearly just said that the Prime variants are represented by differently-armored Fusion pirates, so this thing has nothing to do with anything. Dazuro 01:55, August 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Only the echoes and corruption ones wore armor. The Prime ones looked mostly organic (not to mention fleshy), and were unique in their structure. Hell Kaiser ryo12 [ ADMIN ] (Talk&bull;Contribs) 10:01, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, so its not a Space Pirate/Space Pirate "friend", right? I already spoiled myself way too much, so just answer with a simple yes or no. Dr.Pancake 04:55, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Well... that's... hard to explain. The zebesians in this aren't actually with the space pirates. So it's allied with them, but neither they nor it are actually classical space pirates. Except later on the zebesians kind of are, so this thing might be. Hard to explain without spoilers and I really don't get the details yet. But no, it's not a Morphology: Space Pirate type thing. Dazuro 05:55, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Cool. Thanks! Well, in a way we were both somewhat right, I guess. Btw, I wanted to ask you what you think of the game so far? From what it looks like its been getting a lot of love and hate (mostly hate, unfortunately). The main problem I keep hearing are the controls and Samus acting like a little girl when in the Prime games (which is before), she was more of the badass, quiet protagonist, even in Zero Mission actually. I guess I can agree that the childish emotion part wasn't a good idea. Although, if the game was a prequel to everything than that would have made things a whole lot easier for them. Oh well... Dr.Pancake 06:25, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

It completely ignores both the manga and Prime as far as I can tell. Flat-out contradicts Prime, supports some of the manga while ignoring other parts. Still, the story is hella good so far. Explains a ton about the pirates, Ridley, the events of Super Metroid, the Federation, Samus's past... and only once is it "in-your-face-expository-nonstop" as was feared. And that cutscene made me utter at least four "holy shits" at the plot twists it revealed, so I didn't even care. On the one hand I wanted it to end so I could play, but on the other hand.. what happens next?! :P As for the gameplay, enemies have too much health and the beam damage is badly balanced. Once you get Wave everything dies instantly but up until then your beam never does much damage no matter how many upgrades you collect, making minibosses a real chore. But beyond that... amazing. Incredibly smooth, fun, satisfying ... Honestly, the only flaws I can find are the beam balance/enemy health issue and the music. Sometimes it's great atmospheric creepy-as-hell stuff, and the battle music is great (best Ridley theme ever, too!), but most of the environmental themes are just... eh. You don't even notice them. Dazuro 06:30, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Contradicts Prime, eh? That was my worst fear of this game. Even though he despise the Prime Trilogy (from what it looks like to me), Sakamoto should of at least made the effort to make all the games connect with eachother, now he made everthing more confusing. Also, I don't want to sound like a douche or anything, especially on Wikitroid, but it seems that Sakamoto ruined the overall storyline in the Metroid series and yes, I know he's the creator of Metroid so that gives him the rights to do the hell he wants with the games, but still... The only conclusion I can think of is that they fix the timeline. Something like, Metroid: Zero Mission -> Metroid II -> Super Metroid -> Metroid: Other M -> (New game needed here, I recommend Retro Studios and Sakamoto working together) -> Metroid Prime -> Metroid Prime: Hunters - Metroid Prime 2: Echoes -> Metroid Prime 3: Corruption -> Metroid Fusion. It would be better if Other M was before everything, but that's too late thanks to the unfortunate, yet epic opening cutscene with Mother Brain. Beside that, looks like the game will be fun as hell and definitely great replay value. And yes, they did a great job on Ridley's theme! Dr.Pancake 07:12, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Other M would not REMOTELY work if it was before the others. It's not just the intro, the entire story is a followup to Super and a precursor to Fusion in every way. As far as Prime goes, I see it basically like how comic books tend to work--there's a main storyline and then occasional non-canon alternate universe stories that get released from time to time. Or look at it like Zelda, where there are several divergences in the timeline and even if they're all canon they can't happen at the same time. The main problem is that while the games were amazing, Retro took too many liberties with the backstory. Since they had the ability to add scans and lores they gave a background to everything. And then when that didn't mesh with where Sakamoto wanted to take the series...well, it's not his fault the Texans already laid it all out, now is it? Prime is basically just a Western take on the property with its own story, its own characters in its own self-contained world. Great games and a great plot, but not relevant to the quadrilogy to begin with, much less once Other M injected its own history. Dazuro 08:19, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

How exactly does this contradict Prime? Because it's allied with the space pirates? That wouldn't be a contradiction. After all, only games that came between Metroid and Metroid Prime could contradict it in any large way without stating it existed in the first place, as far as I can tell. Plus, just because the Prime games were made by Texans, doesn't mean that the Prime games were any less canonical. There was a great deal of interaction between them and Nintendo as well. I'm sorry if i offended you at all, but I just don't see what you're saying. -- Deku tulla  ZM  14:11, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

First off, where are you (general "you" here, not DekulltulaZM) getting all of this information? I know some of its from the manga and previews, but tracking all of it down and separating out the speculation is a bit too much work for me at the moment. Also, we already have spoiler warnings everywhere, but I guess I can wait until I have the game to strighten this all out. And, finally, I see no reason why the relatively mild contradictions between Prime and the Sakamoto-y games force one or the other to be excised: Star Trek has successfully rewritten much of Roddenberry's ideas and made a logically-coherent (if convoluted) universe out of the whole mess. (Of course, Star Trek has the luxury of time travel as a retconning device, but they had to deal with actual dates very close to the present day as well). Just because a contradiction is not explained within the existing canon does not mean that it is inexplicable.--AdmiralSakai 14:35, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Deku, it contradicts Prime because Samus has never fought a cybernetic pirate, has not seen the Aurora Units, shows surprise that Ridley survived a second time (Zero Mission is one thing, but Zero, Prime, Corruption, Corruption again, Super, and now he's back?). It contradicts Prime because the Space Pirates function completely differently as an organization and a species. And I wasn't saying that it was noncanon because it was made by Texans. I was just trying to use some variety in my wording instead of just saying Nintendo vs Retro, Metroid vs Prime, etc. And Sakai, I'm getting it by playing the game, of course. >_> And it was apparently stated at one point by Sakamoto that he considered them more of a gaiden and ignored their events for this game. Anyway, throughout most of the game I felt like it was definitely implied that Prime hadn't happened, but as you said they were minor. But ... well, I don't want to spoil the entire plot, but trust me, some late-game revelations make the Aurora Units completely impossible to have existed. Dazuro 17:14, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

I know you said they weren't, but THAT right there makes me believe that they're going to fix the timeline. I mean, Nintendo shouldn't really let things slide like that no matter who its made from, so I'm pretty sure they're going to do something about that. Anyway, I don't know why, but I always consider the Prime games ahead in the timeline for some reason. Dr.Pancake 18:12, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Dude. The official timeline is Metroid/ZM, Prime, Prime Hunters, Prime 2, Prime 3, Metroid II, Super Metroid, Metroid Other M, Metroid Fusion. This is a fact, not a guess.


 * Dazuro, its not like Prime made any effort to fit into the main series either. The MarioGalaxy2433g5  { talk /contribs/Logs} 18:21, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Never said they did. What's your point? Dazuro 19:13, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

I know its a fact as of now, but doesn't mean they can't change it. Sakamoto even released an "official" timeline and 'surprise'! He even included the Prime Trilogy in that timeline, but that still doesn't forgive what he has done with the story. Also, remember when Prime was consider Metroid V? Then they changed it into a prequel to Metroid II, which is also why the US version isn't really consider canon anymore, WHICH IS ALSO why they chose the PAL version to make the Trilogy. That's good enough proof to say that they can change the timeline. Nintendo can do whatever the hell they want with their games and Other M is a perfect example of that. Dr.Pancake 20:17, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Alright, now I'm just confused. Keaton is referenced and Dane appears, or at least a man who looks identical, sounds similar and wears a similar hat. What the hell, Nintendo? Dazuro 20:55, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Dane? The hell? Out of all the Prime reference they could of added, they chose him? Well, a minor reference is better than no reference, I guess. Dr.Pancake 21:14, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Well, like I said, he looks and sounds like him. But he's never explicitly named, and after looking again maybe he isn't quite so similar. But still. See for yourself: Thoughts? Dazuro 22:09, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, sorry I don't see it. All I can think of is him older, maybe? But nah, don't think so and besides since Samus is so talkative, she would have probably said something like "OMG! ITS YOU!!!!!". Or did he only appear in a flashback? Dr.Pancake 22:14, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Uh.. Samus isn't talkative at all. She has like three lines in the game discounting the shouts of "no," "come back," etc. And she was a bit busy when he showed up... Dazuro 22:33, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Then what's all the reviewers problem? They keep saying Other M ruined Samus as a character because she keeps talking and acting childish, so they gave it a bad rating. Also, Ridley and the Space Pirates don't talk, right? Please say no. Dr.Pancake 22:56, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Protip, professional reviewers are retarded. Except me, of course :) But uh.. she has occasional monologues like in Fusion, and that's about it. She only acts childish in the flashbacks to back when she was--gasp--younger. Ridley never talks, which I actually don't like since there's one scene where he just sits there roaring at Samus for about a minute and it really feels like there should be at least one line there besides "Ridley?!" The zebesians never talk, no. Dazuro 23:02, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Ridley and the Zebesians probably can talk, but not english ;) Metroid101 23:09, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Well, they do speak "English" in the manga, but Prime requires Samus to translate their text.... Dazuro 23:17, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

Oh thank God... And I try not to trust reviewers that much, but it felt a bit weird that they all keep complaining about the same exact thing, but now you made me feel a littel better about the game. To be honest, I wouldn't like Ridley talking at all in the games, it'll ruin his character BIG TIME, I'd much rather have him roaring for an hour than Ridley talking smack about Samus in some British accent. Ridley was able to become one of the most badass villains without even saying a word. Same goes for the Space Pirates or in this case, The "Zebesians". Oh and Metroid101, of course. These guys haven't became infamous just by grunting at eachother as to what to do next. Dr.Pancake 23:18, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

What! BTW Its "English" Accent but IDGAFTM, British accents are really scary when its in an anger tone!! But if Ridley had an accent, I would like it to be russian or Sweedish ... it just seems to suit a Dragon. Metroid101 03:26, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Ehh, I'd still prefer if he didn't talk, especially with that duck beak of his they gave Ridley in Other M. I'd like to think of Ridley as Bowser except that Bowser somewhat always talked in the 2D games, but people seemed okay with that. He didn't really have such a big dialogue. Man, when I heard his voice in Sunshine, I almost threw up. Anyway, I hope they'll release a name for that "Dane" looking guy. If it is him, I'll be sooo happy 'cause now I'm starting to hear things around the NET that the Prime Trilogy might not be consider canon with the "main" story anymore. In other words, a game made just for shits and giggles, but if it is him than that changes everything. Although, like I said before, I don't think it is him. :( Dr.Pancake 05:00, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that the guy is Dane though... but I want to know his name SO BAD!! Metroid101 06:33, August 30, 2010 (UTC)

Wait, wait, wait...Dazuro, you're a reviewer? Wow. Er...is it true Phantoon is a bonus boss? Because that's something I heard recently. Also, couldn't all the changes theoretically happened in the intervening time? Maybe the Pirates got new leaders or something. And everyone knows Science team has vapor for brains, so...plus, maybe the GFS gave up on aurora units after MP3? There has to be something that reconciles them all...please...-- Deku tulla  ZM  13:56, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, Phantoon's in as the "true" final boss after the credits. The pirates... yyyeah, that's not entirely reconcilable. The game kind of holds to the manga's idea that the pirate race is completely useless on its own and needs external leadership, hence Ridley, Mother Brain, Gray Voice, and the new villain in this game. They can't have their own internal rulership. While I hate that it makes Prime invalid in a lot of ways, I really like the way they handled it despite that. And Ridley...yeah, that's another fair problem. Samus clearly hasn't fought Ridley that much, from the way she reacts to him. As far as the Auroras go? Well, warning, massive spoilers ahead for others reading this, but since you asked: The Feds build a new Mother Brain-type thing and it's a huge shocker twist and a secret program and such. So now we have High Command, Aurora Units, Meta Ridley, and a few other minor things that can't have existed. The influence from Prime is definitely there in terms of gameplay, items, enemy patterns and such, but story-wise it either didn't happen or somehow the entire dynamics of both major organizations in the series changed in the interim. Dazuro 17:05, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Throughout the game, Samus demonstrates more emotional reactions than she did in previous games of the series. This makes sense, as she has just comitted genocide against the Metroids, then had one bond to her like some sort of a cross between a dog and a baby, then watched it die, been drained of almost all of her energy, and generally abused during the events of Super Metroid, then ran into a former CO and close friend who distrusts her, so she would PROBABLY be a little more on-edge... and in any event her emotional reactions are spread throughout the game, not just around the Ridley fight. I don't know why the Auroura Units are such a big sticking point, considering that although they are similar to Mother Brain, they are a much cruder technology and have none of her personality. It's sort of like expecting someone to spontaneously realize that they're in the Matrix because they played Second Life. Lastly, Ridley serves as the leader of the Pirates in Prime and Echoes, while Dark Samus takes them over in Corruption, and although Samus is shocked to see cybernetic Zebesians with GF hardware, she doesn't seem at all unaccustomed to the idea in general.--AdmiralSakai 21:16, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with what you said, Sakai. Although, I do see Dazuro's point though. IMO, I don't think the game contradicted the Prime games that much (well, beside the style of course) to the point where the Trilogy is non-canon anymore. Obviously, I was very happy to see the Seeker Missiles in Other M a Prime games exclusive item, but I didn't like the fact that the item had to be found instead of being authorized, which means she never had it to begin with. I don't know, maybe she lost it like the other gazillions of items she had. Dr.Pancake 21:28, September 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * She didn't have it in Super Metroid, so she wouldn't have it in Other M. If you're thinking about the ends of Prime 2 and 3, she gave the suit back to the Luminoth/GFeds because they weren't her's. All the chozo stuff she got in Super Metroid was her's to keep, though. Extraxi 21:34, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm, interesting. You bring up a good point. But what do you mean she gave back her suit to the GF? Are you talking about the PED suit? If so, she didn't have to give back the items or did she? Dr.Pancake 21:39, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

Intelligence
Uh... how exactly does being acrobatic make it intelligent? It jumps around and kicks and claws. Anything can do that. Mind you, I think it's definitely sapient on account of it having guns and an electricity generator and wearing armor. I agree with the end result. But that's really fuzzy logic, I'd say. Dazuro 23:20, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

I put the sentient part in when I first made the article. I was referring to its apparant ability to strategize (by knocking down ice blocks to obstruct Samus) and its use of armor and technological weapons. The acrobatics had nothing to do with my mention of sentience (they weren't even mentioned at that time), although if you think that reasoning is not clear I would be happy to clarify in the article.--AdmiralSakai 23:27, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, wait, didn't see the anonymous edit at first.... yeah, that makes no sense whatesoever. But I added the "cyborgs" category even though I don't know if the armor is actually a part of the creature: I thought it best to include possible but unconfirmed members in the relevant categories. Since it's a possible (probable?) sentient, by that logic I'll keep it in the SR category for the time being until I can get an answer or somebody tells me what the actual protocol for those sorts of ambiguities is.--AdmiralSakai 23:31, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

Samus has been considered a cyborg because of how heavily integrated her armor is with her body, so I'd argue that this thing should be the same way. Its armor-given abilities clearly influence its physiology, as it's able to electrify its entire body to attack and such. Also, it doesn't fire those guns by means of any external stimuli, as far as we can tell. And seeing as it's a bioweapon... Dazuro 23:40, September 7, 2010 (UTC)

Trivia and "acrobat-ism"
I think it's worth noting (at least as trivia) that this thing can leap from the bottom of a room to the highest level platform, not necisarily in all the rooms but it happened to me at least once. Land Shark7896 00:44, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Alleged piratehood
Because I'm sure someone will contest that, let me explain: Look at this thing's gallery art. It has gecko-like hands and feet and its limbs are far more curvy and differently shaped/postured. The neck is way too long, and-- well, more importantly, look at the gallery art for the Zebesians in this game. They have long hunched fleshy necks with bulging fleshy backs exposed beyond their armor.. you know, just like the Prime pirates. They also have the same posture in battle. But more pertinently, look at how the pirates developed through the Prime subseries. With every game, they got more and more Zebesian-like, as though to slowly "correct" that they made them so different in the first game. And when asked about it, Andrew Jones--the man who designed the Prime pirates--explicitly said that he wanted all pirates to look like the same species, but feel like different variants. He also said that their changing physiology between games had no significance beyond art style for variety's sake. So not only do we have the issue with the thing's arms and legs, but Word of God says all of his pirates are Zebesians. Maybe this thing is a space pirate in the sense that kihunters are, but it's definitely not the Tallon-based mantis pirates we know and love. Also, again, those things were extremely insectoid despite having reptile features. This thing is pure reptile. Dazuro 03:42, September 8, 2010 (UTC)