Wikitroid talk:Requests for Comment/Curating content

Guidelines disussion For additional existing discussion reference, please see below. ->
 * Talk:Water-filled room (Area 5 lower level)
 * Talk:Arachnus' room
 * Talk:Dessgeega-infested hall

Live chat on IRC/Discord < LizardDiscord>  this list of articles is absurd. i'm not getting into rooms yet, just objects (edited) < LizardDiscord>  did the notability rfc mean nothing? < LizardDiscord>  That was primarily for stuff like Bee, Epidermis and Carbon, where it was purely words < LizardDiscord>  The resolution got rid of those, but wasn't very well defined < LizardDiscord>  did you read the deletion policy? < LizardDiscord>  I can see your point about room objects, but not the rooms < LizardDiscord>  The following were made eligible for deletion via the Notability RfC. Note that these are not hard rules and articles that are examples of these will be determined on a case by case basis. < LizardDiscord>  Topics whose articles restate that which is in other articles or could be discussed in other articles without leaving the primary topic or creating large walls of text. < LizardDiscord>  what prompted creating these things < LizardDiscord>  ðŸ¤· Spontaneity? < LizardDiscord>  If that's a word < LizardDiscord>  its understandable if it isnt' (edited) < LizardDiscord>  Why don't you make a list of the articles you take issue with? < LizardDiscord>  i am < LizardDiscord>  that's why i mentioned sublime text < LizardDiscord>  < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> that way don't have to go back and remove links for anything that gets deleted < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> see, this is fine < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> https://metroid.fandom.com/wiki/Ship-upgrade_system < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> i have no issues with this < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> its a one room object, with a complicated system and unique feature < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> but this < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> https://metroid.fandom.com/wiki/Battery_unit < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> this is more than capable within it's room < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> @Bearborg i'd hate to ask such a task, but there's apparently quite a few rooms in the 1st and 3rd games that don't have scans properly filled out. don't have working controllers for trilogy right now, any way you would use dolphin to collect the information? < LizardDiscord> <Bearborg> dolphin no, PrimeWorldEditor yes < LizardDiscord> <Bearborg> got a list? < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> nope < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> all i know is that prime 2 is complete < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> or should be, seems later areas have scans but i don't remember finishing it since its been years < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> https://metroid.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_rooms_in_Metroid_Prime https://metroid.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_rooms_in_Metroid_Prime_3%3A_Corruption < LizardDiscord> <Bearborg> welllllllp that'll take a while to go through < LizardDiscord> <Bearborg> i'll give it a shot though < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> yeah, it took me a while for echoes < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> apparently i missed these things too < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> https://metroid.fandom.com/wiki/Bigbug < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> From deletion policy: Flora, fauna, and structures that serve as scenery, especially when there is little to no information on the topic. These should be discussed on relevant articles if it can be done so without detracting from the main article. < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> That is very different from a stationary rafflesia flower in Brinstar < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> how so? do you interact with it? does it affect gameplay? do we have anything besides the model and internal file name? < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> the notability rfc was made specifically for cases like this, and the resulting addition to the deletion policy to branch out into any topic that has little information or is better suited in an existing article < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> is a single image with a caption specifying its location and/or behavior too little info on something that exists in the background? < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Yes it is, this is clearly a living creature and not some little flower < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Anyone else have something to comment? < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> "flora, fauna, and structures..." < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> fauna means living creatures < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Let me ask you this: if I wrote a page for the big Pyrosphere room with the glass tube, where the Vorash tries to eat you, and called it Multilevel room (which it is called in the guide), would you take issue with it? < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> yes < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Because of the name? Is it the names that are your main issue, or the relevancy? Or both < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> here's an excerpt from the list i'm making < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> These rooms add little unique information deviating from their parent subjects' articles, have indistinctive unreferential names, or hold no important events relating to game or story progression. < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> that room is easily described in two or three sentences on vorash < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Uh, no < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> It has items, and other enemies, and puzzles < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> You can't cover that on Vorash's page < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> that's what this rfc is going to help decide about < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> because i'm also going to make a list about previous articles that would take issue < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Which is nearly all room articles with this logic < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> such as inter-area transports in primes, industrial grade pesticide, etc. < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> this is going to be a major curating on what we present and how we do it < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> we avoided making 2d rooms this long for this very reason < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> You created that page (edited) < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> i did < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> and it's in conflict with what we're re-deciding on < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> it's not only mentioned in a single room, but can also be briefly mentioned (if even) on a hazard/poison page without detracting from the topic of said page (edited) < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> A general hazard and poison page? < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> mmhmm < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> we have room lists < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Which list off room articles, yes < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> metroid cycle < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Or do you want all rooms merged with those lists? < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> for the primes? no < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> you would have to carry over the scan information < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> and it would make a giant wall of text < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> These have no issues with presenting unique information, have distinct referential names, or hold important events relating to game or story progression. < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> A hazard and poison page is a wall of text < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> hardly < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> look at special:longpages < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> prime scans would dwarf everything < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> https://metroid.fandom.com/wiki/Alpha_Metroid_chamber https://metroid.fandom.com/wiki/Alpha%27s_chamber here's some indistinctive unreferential titles < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> alpha's chamber, alpha metroid chamber < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Well, we could easily change one to a conjectural title that's different < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> gonna have to do that quite a bit if i'm going to even consider these non issue right now < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> how about water-filled tank < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> is that room or an object < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> it's not listed anywhere in the game < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> A room < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> There's a Cryosphere room (named ingame) called Water Tank < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Would you get rid of that? Or Room MW? This proposal of yours is a slippery slope (edited) < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> "The hall in the next room is a long water-filled tank. Drop into the Skultera-filled water and fight your way past the Skulteras and Frondanas in the water." (edited) < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> how exactly is it a slippery slope? i'm trying to curate our content. just because we can make it doesn't mean we should < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> this isn't just for recent articles, this is for Save station A-Z < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> this is for giving our information in a better presentation (edited) < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> for crying out loud, there's a red link for small passageway < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Doesn't mean we have to call it that < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> that's what you were going to < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> that's what you've been doing < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> that's what peaboddy has been doing < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> I can use conjectural names, but I thought if I could avoid that, I would < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> these are conjectural names < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> taking a brief description and calling it a name is conjectural naming (edited) < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Well I don't believe it is < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> The names themselves are unimaginative, yes, but it's not conjecture on our part < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> you're okay with people navigating our site with articles titled water-filled room < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> we have complete control over article titles and content < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> How is that any different from Watery Hall < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> using descriptions that were never meant to be names from a third party strategy guide is conjectural naming < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> it's explicitly, distinctly, named by retro in game, viewable on the map screen < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> And the same goes for Water Tank, Room MW and Breeding Room? < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> none of those rooms state their sources of their names. were they named in game? translated (if so from where)? < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> The names appear on screen when you enter them < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Also, the words Room MW come out of Adam's mouth < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> then yes, they are the same as Watery Hall < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> Unconcerned articles These have no issues with presenting unique information, have distinct referential names, or hold important events relating to game or story progression. < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Let me know if the page I created just now falls under your umbrella, even though I use a conjectural name < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> i thought i asked to hold off on creating these things < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> That will be my last one < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> couldn't have instead shared it here first < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Hadn't thought of that, too late now I suppose < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> You hear the points that Peabody and I have made, right? < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> a much better title (i'll disregard the fact you put it as a proper noun for now) however, being an unnamed room that bears no gameplay, story, or community significance, why should it exist? < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Again, if you're going by lack of gameplay, story and community significance you'll end up removing a lot of access room pages < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Including those with actual names < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> that depends on what we define in the rfc < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> @Bearborg thoughts on any of this? < LizardDiscord> <Bearborg> gotta side with madax for the most part, i think we've really gotten over the top with articles for uninteresting rooms/objects < LizardDiscord> <Bearborg> i do personally think we should keep info for background critters like bigbug, but i wouldn't be averse to merging a lot of those into a single page per game or per planet or something < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Bigbug and Bugcrystal should not be merged < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> As for proper noun, if I'd called it "Arching passageway" or "Small arching passageway", as it's named in the guide, you would've told me it's not a name < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> why would they merge? one exists in areas 2 5 and 6, the other in area 4. see what you meant (edited) < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> https://metroid.fandom.com/wiki/Wikitroid%3ARequests_for_Comment/Descriptive_Names < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> "Descriptive names must be treated within text as conventional nouns, not proper nouns." (edited) < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> "If the descriptor does not meet the same standards of professional voice that are applied to article text, it cannot be used as a name." (edited) < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> I wouldn't rely on anything Piratehunter said < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Or Complete Supremacy, aka Insurgence < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Neither of them are credible or trustworthy, as we've learned (edited) < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> are you saying those points are invalid < LizardDiscord> <Bearborg> i might not be up-to-date on the piratehunter drama but him being a wackjob doesn't mean every policy he proposed is unreasonable < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Didn't you say this RfC turned into a shouting match? < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> What points did he raise? This drama is not something you want to know about, Bear, trust me < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> it did, but it still brought up important points that, when people did actually participate with, provided agreement or critique to make it better (edited) < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> (for the most part. only one person disagreed) < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Can you name such points? < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> All I see is him bashing ChozoBoy < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> Comment: Difficult to tell what the Agree/Disagree positions are. I'd like to see descriptive names kept, maybe with template disclaimers. ChozoBoy (Talk/Contribs) 23:05, March 17, 2011 (UTC) < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> Agree: I think we need some guidlines for these names. Some of them can get a bit ridiculous. HellKaiserryo12[ADMIN] (Talkâ€¢Contribs) 12:05, March 20, 2011 (UTC) < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> Comment: One possible solution to the template issue is to forgo the template and simply put the bolded name in quotation marks. That may or may not work, but I would like it to be considered. (It also makes me think of a quote, possibly from Dean Stockewll: "You know you have a good compromise when both parties walk away feeling screwed".....) "My name is AdmiralSakai, and I approve this message." < LizardDiscord> 21, 2011 (UTC) < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> Comment: As for the real matter on hand, I think that descriptors are important when they help distinguish between certain articles, but I don't like the fact that we need a "the" and "a" on every article. It takes up space and newer users when creating links might link to articles that don't exist. Then we have to reprimand said user and fix the problem. While it doesn't take up a lot of time, it < LizardDiscord> efficient. I quite like the ULFs because they're easy to link to and the most professional name that we can give to them. Complete Supremacy 21:52, March 21, 2011 (UTC) < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> The last one is what we do now for conjectural names < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> and in response to that last one nevermind wrong one was striked out (edited) < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Well, he was wrong about the ULFs being professional (edited) < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> His edits here (Complete Supremacy) were purely as a cover to continue harassing me < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> i don't see how unidentified substance 2 is professional < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> compared to getting a thought-out, proper designation < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Gah, I meant to write professional < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> The ULF names were unprofessionl < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> ðŸ‘ < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> regardless, the fact that you so easily disregard these guidelines that would help the wiki if followed shows that we need a new one (edited) < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> If you're going to do an RfC, then you'll have to make sure it's clear what is being proposed, and be open to change < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> pretty much < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> that's the point of how they're supposed to go < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Yes, but historically they have not < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> because everyone was too busy being a dick to each other < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Also, nobody votes on them unless you push them to, and then Lizard tells me not to "canvas" when I do < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> saw an announcement thing on the admin dashboard < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> might try that and see how it works < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> The admin dashboard here? I don't have access to that < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> i mean its probably a bad idea to give site-wide notice priviliges to nonadmins < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Fine, but expect that you may have to push people to vote on it < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> we got time until prime 4 comes out < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Otherwise it'll still be up in a year like our 3 RfDs < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> those do need to be closed, i think one of them hasn't gotten any attention and isn't particularly a good candidate < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> The disambig? < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> no, there's another one < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> turbo bomb < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> none of its points are actually true < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> expands content that both bomb jump and sequence breaking glance over, and other pages link to it (edited) < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> it's also community term < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Nobody's voted on it, and I would agree with you on its merits, so the RfD should be closed < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> So why did you delete that disambig with only a single vote in favor of removing it? < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> I do see your point. All right, so this disambig is a weak example and we don't really need it. But I think this sort of thing should be decided on a case by case basis. RoyboyX(complaints/records) 00:33, November 6, 2018 (UTC) (edited) < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Never mind < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> https://metroid.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Artifact_Temple_(Disambiguation) make sure you take this out too then < LizardDiscord> <Siriacus> Wow, I missed a lot while I was at work < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> indeed < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> feel free to leave a comment or wait for the rfc < LizardDiscord> <MadaxTheShadow> i'll be including logs from here so there's more context to work with (edited) < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Basically I want these room articles to stay, we can debate about room objects, but I don't see the harm in room pages < LizardDiscord> <Siriacus> Regarding the Bigbug creatures, I think those are deserving of their own articles, personally. < LizardDiscord> <RoyboyX> Agreed < LizardDiscord> <Siriacus> Especially since as a Wiki weâ€™re supposed to document every creature in the series, both of the critters qualify imo < LizardDiscord> <Siriacus> Whether they impact gameplay really shouldn’t matter, as long as they’re individual entities that move on their own (edited) < LizardDiscord> <Siriacus> Now, pages for 2D rooms, on the other hand... eh
 * 1) Log extract from #wikia-metroid from Sat 16 Feb 2019 16:13:26 to Sat 16 Feb 2019 19:40:19 (PST, UTC-08:00)
 * 2) Messages with (edited) are showing as they appear on Discord

As RFC creator, I support the proposed guidelines as replacements to better convey the purpose of the existing notability guidelines. -- Madax the Shadow  {ADMIN} (talk &bull; logs &bull; contribs) 01:49, February 19, 2019 (UTC)

I agree with the existing criteria for the most part. However, I strongly feel that deleting articles on entities that move independent of the scenery, like Bigbug and the Maintenance Units, would be going too far. After all, they're still unique alien creatures and robots that exist only in the Metroid series, and in my opinion merit their own articles, regardless of whether they significantly affect gameplay. --Dr. Anonymous1 (talk) 04:05, February 19, 2019 (UTC)

Need to sleep early for work, but I will add my full rebuttal here tomorrow night. <font face="Calibri" style="font-size:15px;"> R o y b o y X (complaints/records) 04:14, February 19, 2019 (UTC)

We're basically dedicating an entire article to a temporary scan that is two sentences long in regards to maintenance unit. Seems a bit excessive for background scenery. -- Madax the Shadow  {ADMIN} (talk &bull; logs &bull; contribs) 04:40, February 19, 2019 (UTC)


 * These are just my initial thoughts on the RfC.


 * I want to ask for clarification, what counts as "first-party" when we are using sourced titles? Does Nintendo Power (and therefore guidebooks like Metroid: Zero Mission: The Official Nintendo Player's Guide) count? Does Prima Games (and therefore guidebooks like Metroid: Other M Premiere Edition) count? While we don't count most third-party publications (e.g. GamePro) as official sources, we do cite Prima a lot as a trustworthy source for articles like Yakuza, Whipvine, Fleech Swarm, etc. (while also applying common sense, in instances like Metroid Prime and Metroid Fusion: Prima's Official Strategy Guide screwing up a ton of common enemy names).


 * As for the proposed guidelines themselves... I like the idea behind them, that they're supposed to guide an editor through some critical thought whether a subject is notable enough to deserve an article. Unfortunately... I think they are not necessarily that effective, leaving gray area open to interpretation that doesn't resolve the issue at hand.


 * For example, take a look at TPO. I know it's an enemy and not a room or object, but let's just see how it fares with these guidelines. By default of being an enemy, it is interactive in gameplay (1.), but it's a very simple and basic enemy that flies back and forth in a manner identical to many other enemies (Yumbo, Pincher Fly, etc.) from the same game, so there isn't anything unique about its role in gameplay (i.e. it is the enemy equivalent of a straight hallway with nothing in it). There is very little first-party info (2.) available on TPO; in fact, there are exactly two English sentences, both of which are alternative localizations of a single Japanese sentence. It does have an explicit proper name in first-party media (3.), but this is the only point that it undeniably passes. It is found only in a single room in a single game (4.), and didn't appear in the remake or even in the artbook (which contains artwork of other enemies left out of the remake)! Again, it is a very simple and basic minor enemy that holds no significance in the overall game or series (5.). At this current time, though, I don't think that its info can be easily stated elsewhere (6.), but there is always the potential for creating an article for minor enemies or Chozo robots and simply merging this one into that list.


 * In conclusion, TPO would most likely fail to qualify as an article based on these guidelines. It only undeniably passes one point (3.); two points (1. and 6.) are a grey area; and it outright fails three points (2., 4., and 5.). If these notability guidelines were strictly enforced, I'd say that TPO should be deleted. But, I think we can all agree that TPO shouldn't be deleted, for a multitude of various reasons.


 * In that case, how effective are these guidelines really? At what point do we have people ignoring them because "They're more like guidelines than actual rules"?


 * Now, let's look at Water-filled room (Area 5 lower level), since that seems to be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. As a room, it has multiple gameplay elements and interactions (1.), including enemies, hazards, obstacles, puzzles, items, and stations. It doesn't have first-party info (2.) or a proper name (3.), which are admittedly the biggest points against it. It appears in two games (already giving us the ability to compare and contrast its appearances in the two games), and while that might not sound like very much, the fact that it contains a Teleport Station gives it the valuable potential for being one of the most frequently-visited rooms in Samus Returns, comparable to the gunship landing sites from Corruption (4.). Again, having a Teleport Station gives it significance within Samus Returns, and in addition to its aforementioned gameplay elements, it also introduces new aesthetics and music that make it stand out while progressing through the game (5.). The last point, whether its info could be concisely stated on another page (6.), is debatable; personally, I think we have more to lose from deleting the article than we have to gain from merging it, since it has enough information to stand on its own as a room article.


 * In contrast, there's "Wallfire hall", which I've cited as an example of a room article that I will not write. Again, as a room, it has gameplay elements and interactions (1.), but it's just a short and simple hallway with two Black Wallfires, and that's it. Again, it lacks first-party info (2.) or a proper name (3.). Unlike the water-filled room, the Wallfire hall may be exclusive to just one game (4.), since I honestly cannot determine if it has a direct counterpart in the original Return of Samus (due to the altered layout of Area 2 vs. Phase 3), and it isn't a room that the player will likely be revisiting often in Samus Returns. The only notable thing about the room is that it leads directly to the Varia Suit's room, but there isn't anything special or noteworthy about the Wallfire hall itself (5.). Since there is so little information, any info could be sufficiently stated on other pages (6.).


 * I've said before that I carefully evaluate a potential article's content before writing it. It's through this line of thought that I personally came to the conclusion that Wallfire hall doesn't deserve its own article... but the water-filled room does. In a way, that means that I'm already running these guidelines through my head, but that's largely using common sense. If I can sum it all up in just a paragraph, it doesn't deserve an article. If I have enough info that I can write a decent article, then why shouldn't I write that article? --PeabodySam (talk) 17:04, February 19, 2019 (UTC)

After Nintendo Power was shut down, Prima Games became the primary publisher of Nintendo strategy guides. Sure, they sucked at accuracy with the Prime and Fusion guide, but they got better over time. The Samus Returns guide, while I haven't read it in full, appears to be a significant improvement in quality.

The reason I'm mentioning this is in response to Peabody's question about what is considered a first-party source. Prima should be considered as such. As he said, we've used them to great length in the past, acknowledging when a name isn't accurate or erroneous, such as Elephant Bird. That is clearly a mistranslation, and it's noted as such on the page while still being used as its name. We do the same with Varia Suit, an obvious mistranslation of "Barrier Suit" that has stuck.

Let me properly start off my rebuttal by saying that I am quite sick and tired of the "It's a description" argument. That has been used very arbitrarily to refer to certain pages as flawed and an excuse not to create the article, or to remove it if it is created. Let me name off some examples of pages that could be considered to have "descriptions" for titles, but that nobody has raised an issue with: android, bioweapon, bioform, biomorph and bliptrans. If Watery Hall or Exam Center are proper nouns, and those five are not, what's to stop them from being considered descriptions? Do we merge those? What do we merge them with?

I'll be very blunt and add that I will not allow Bigbug, one of the pages you've tagged as "high concern", to be merged. I simply will not allow it. The background creatures in Samus Returns have garnered much fan interest, and there are scores of forums, tweets and communications discussing them, what they are and whether you can fight them. Bigbug02 in particular is very popular. You can't relegate something like that to a section. A little mushroom that grows on a tree stump, without extra information attached to it, yes, that is something you would merge. As for maintenance unit, if you do away with that you'll also have to off our Bird and Fish pages; again, both of those have amassed interest as well. Admittedly, the maintenance unit has not, but it appears in lots of rooms throughout the Sanctuary Fortress, it's ubiquitous. If the article name is an issue, I'm sure Bearborg can easily find an internal name to replace it.

I question why you've listed Industrial-grade pesticide - a page you created, I might add - as "high concern". It is not a Bigfoot and Santa Claus situation. I could be grossly misinformed, but to my knowledge there is no gaseous pesticide anywhere in the world. Any pesticides I've seen or used (I haven't used one, what am I saying) are in spray bottles and applied directly to the surface of an object, rather than dispersed as a gas through vents. For this reason, I think of it like the water and cow articles, cited as examples of articles that cover subjects which exist in real life, but provide a significant role in Metroid. Having said that, this pesticide is only scenery in the game, but it did serve a purpose to the marines stationed in the Splinter Hive. Can you also explain why SR388's solar system and Docking Bays would be of any concern at all?

Of the non-room objects you've listed as high concern, I particularly dispute Power cables, Tall Chozo structure, Cannon (Zipline Station Bravo), Chiton armor and Thorned roots. Well, I dispute them all really, but those in particular. This is due to their recurrence and uniqueness. Now, admittedly Energy generators could get a merge into Energy Generator. That's fine. But you cannot say that Tall Chozo structure is too short and has no data to back it up. It has a cameo in Smash Bros., official data from what you call a first-party source, and is unique enough among other Chozo statuary to receive its own mention. That leads me to another question: I've been calling this RfC an article cull, but is it? Is the goal to wipe these pages out if there's a result in your favor? Or significant reworking? As we debate, is it possible for some of these articles to be removed from the list? I would like to know this.

Onto the real reason this RfC was started: rooms in 2 or 2.5D Metroid games. Years ago we created articles for every room in the Metroid Prime series, which assigns a name to each room in the map, while the 2D and 2.5D ones are more selective with their naming. Your argument has been that a lot of these rooms can be summarized in a paragraph or a sentence on a relevant article. One example of why this wouldn't work is an article that I was planning to write, but was told by you to hold off on: Multilevel room. That's what the Other M guide calls the big room in the Pyrosphere with the glass tube, in which the Vorash tries to eat you, and later on you explore the superheated part of the room and the Vorash chases you. Your argument was that this room could be mentioned in a single sentence on the Vorash's page. No, it cannot. The Vorash is not the only notable thing about this room. There is that tube, there are Mellas, Magdollites, a hidden sensor puzzle, Grapple Points and numerous other features. You can't mention all of that on Vorash's article, for the same reason you can't merge Blast Furnace Observation, the room where you fight the Vorash, into its article. It is not a barren corridor with nothing in it, it's a hub area for the Pyrosphere. That alone makes it significant. Only problem is, it doesn't have a proper noun for a name.

Speaking of barren corridors, to quote Nikki Haley, you can't split the cow. You can't skip a few rooms because you think they're not as important as, say, Room MW or Proving Grounds. That's why we have articles like Temple Transport C, Hub Access and the various Save, Map, Ammo and Missile Station rooms. Now, I'm not saying I plan or want to write pages for every room in Other M, or Samus Returns, nay, the entire 2D series, but when I do write a room page, I should be allowed to. The reason I used these "descriptions" in page titles was to avoid having to make up conjectural names if I could. Crooked corridor in terms of an article name is not so different from Collapsed Tunnel. The only difference is that due to the spelling of Collapsed Tunnel's name, it's considered a proper noun. I created Experiment Floor Access with that title, only because had I used the guide's name for it, "arching passageway", you would've protested. You still did, but as I said, I wanted to avoid using conjectural names when possible.

What is this RfC really going to accomplish, aside from potentially erasing hours of writing and analysis of each room, and careful consideration of differences between games for SR388 rooms? Is the goal to possibly have a list of rooms in each 2D game? Like the Fusion one here? This list in its current form could only be edited by a single user, Asereje 144, who isn't a regular editor anymore, because he created the formatting and style, and insists on each room referencing technical data. A large list of rooms like that will only serve to cause bloat and be an eyesore, whereas individual room pages would make more sense. Again, this doesn't mean that every Other M, Return of Samus/Samus Returns or other 2D game room should or will get a page, but if there's information to write about them, and a name (sorry, description) to call it, then why shouldn't we?

The key takeaway in the previous debate about article guidelines is they are exactly that - guidelines, not hard rules. Also, it was unproductive and inconclusive. It devolved into a screaming match between Piratehunter and Complete Supremacy, aka Insurgence and a whole lot of other names. Putting those two aside, the guidelines implemented after that RfC are subjective and arbitrarily applied. There are lots of other articles for objects that were not listed among those of concern - examples that come to mind include Magma-eruption port, Colossal War Golem and Massive tentacle. Would you consider them dispensable? The former is a plot-central object, the second is involved in a significant puzzle, and the latter is on par with Bigbug in my view. People would and do look for that article.

The tendency of some users of this wiki to be very strict with regards to how we consider whether a subject has a name or a description, and that names must be official, is why the Unknown Naming System was such a disaster, and why I made the RfC to scrap it. Certain objects will be very difficult or impossible to get "proper noun" names for, due to a variety of factors, so we shouldn't use that as reason to limit what articles we make or edit. Instead of arguing about the semantics of names, we should continue to improve the wiki and add content to it to cover off as many aspects of the games and universe as we can. That is my rebuttal. <font face="Calibri" style="font-size:15px;"> R o y b o y X (complaints/records) 20:44, February 19, 2019 (UTC)

* When I say "you", I'm speaking directly to the RfC's creator, Madax the Shadow.


 * Excuse my brevity, can't exactly sit down and respond to everything just yet, but I figured I'd address one part in particular. I didn't realize List of rooms in Metroid Fusion had been started and thought we had only done the ones from Prime. The format that's on that page is actually pretty solid for all rooms, even Prime's. Section off rooms by regions into subpages, and it would serve as a good list without the need to try to separate what rooms are notable enough and still list all the needed information. Keeping scans under hidden elements in addition to the region sectioning would prevent them from causing the lists to overflow with text. Keep in mind I'm not trying to delete information, I want to organize it. -- Madax the Shadow  {ADMIN} (talk &bull; logs &bull; contribs) 03:07, February 20, 2019 (UTC)


 * Side note: even if you can't access debug information, the lists can still be expanded. There's nothing wrong with adding what you can to improve an article. -- Madax the Shadow  {ADMIN} (talk &bull; logs &bull; contribs) 03:10, February 20, 2019 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure combining all rooms into a list like List of rooms in Metroid Fusion is necessarily a good solution. When I (rhetorically, just to make a point) suggested doing exactly that with just the Prime scan data (not even the rooms themselves) on Talk:Arachnus' room, you immediately said it was a bad idea. Even if we divide the list into multiple subpages for each area, that's still a lot of rooms (and scans, along with other data like enemies and items) to cover for each page. And not just for the Prime games; for example, Area 1 (one of the smallest SR388 areas) has 36 rooms in Samus Returns, and while several of them are small and certainly don't deserve their own articles, that's still going to be 36 sections covered on a single page. And then how would we handle the rooms that are combined, split, added, or removed (assuming it isn't ambiguous) between remakes? I could see this potentially being a real mess.


 * Additionally, the Fusion room list article also makes no distinction between officially-named rooms (like Quarantine Bay) and unofficially-named rooms (like Quarantine Bay Access) besides a very brief disclaimer at the beginning of article saying that most rooms are unofficially named, and yet we still have four sections titled "No Name Room" because Asereje 144 couldn't come up with a descriptive name for them. Super Metroid is the only game with a devoted enough fanbase to come up with a nickname for every single room; the other 2D games (and Other M) don't have that luxury.


 * That being said, there could potentially be instances where a series of rooms can be covered by a single page. We already do this with Corridor No. 3 and Subterranean Control Room, for example. I was also considering expanding second tower corridor to cover all three tower corridors, rather than creating separate pages for the first and third tower corridors (which aren't as notable as the second). But, like I said, this should only be reserved for when it makes sense to combine a particular series of closely-linked rooms. --PeabodySam (talk) 18:55, February 20, 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree with Peabody's points here. A large list of rooms would be too huge and too messy; individual room articles as we do now is better. A question I asked in my rebuttal, that hasn't been responded to yet, is whether articles can be removed from the list here if we come to a consensus that they should stay. I'd like to make a case for retaining the Mechanical hatch page. You may consider the title to be a "description" (again, an arbitrary label), but the subject is unique enough on its own to warrant a page, it plays a role in the story (albeit a minor one) and it is not a stub.


 * I'd also like to hear Peabody's thoughts concerning Mechanical hatch, as well as two other articles discussed here so far, Bigbug and Maintenance unit. <font face="Calibri" style="font-size:15px;"> R o y b o y X (complaints/records) 04:00, February 24, 2019 (UTC)


 * Honestly, I'm indifferent to pages like Mechanical hatch; I concede that it can easily be merged with Aurora Chamber (SkyTown), but I also think there's little harm in keeping the article as long as there's enough relevant content to document. As for Maintenance unit, I think the page is currently rather short and could use some expansion detailing the units' role and behavior; for example, can Samus shoot and destroy them (it's been a while since I've played Echoes, so I can't remember)?


 * I'm actually rather surprised by the fact that so many people have voiced support for keeping Bigbug. Then again, perhaps it isn't without precedent; we've had a page for Deceased Soldier for years despite it being a non-interactive background object without any real significance, simply because fans think it's an interesting subject worth documenting. But, the reason I'm perplexed is Siriacus strongly supporting Bigbug while expressing only an indifferent "eh" to the 2D rooms, which have much more potential for documenting useful information about gameplay. If you support Bigbug but not rooms, may I ask why?


 * That being said, I do not believe that these articles are causing any significant damage to the professionalism of Wikitroid, contrary to Madax's argument. The descriptive names, while perhaps generic or redundant, are clearly not on the level of "white squiggly things". The content of most of these articles surpasses the single sentence of "large lava pit arena". I've also previously argued that concerns about low reader traffic should not be held against an article; that would be like saying "We shouldn't have an article for Zuru because who even cares about a minor creature from Other M?" Therefore, I still do not see this RfC as an issue that must be solved by deleting/merging these articles with descriptive titles en masse. --PeabodySam (talk) 21:21, February 24, 2019 (UTC)

I’ve actually been planning on doing an expansion of the Maintenance Unit page when I have the time; there’s a lot of important stuff that could be added.

As for why I’m so in favor of keeping articles for creatures like Bigbug, I think we should also take into account whether a subject is unique to the series, as is the case with most alien creatures in the games. They may not be relevant to the gameplay per se, but they’re still creatures in the universe, and even in the case of unnamed creatures we still have filenames to use. Personally, I think that we should give as much attention to the universe of the series as to its gameplay, but feel free to disagree with me there.

And don’t get me wrong, I’m not opposed to having articles for 2D rooms, because it’s not like their notability is in question. The only issue I have is that we don’t really have proper, non-conjectural names for most of them. With unnamed creatures like the Bigbugs we at least have tangible filenames that function decently enough as stand-in names, but for most 2D rooms we can’t really find better titles than “that room with all the Rippers in it”. So if any fan goes out searching for a particular 2D room, they’re not going to know what to search for unless they already know what we call them, because any number of names could apply to that particular room, or other similar rooms. If a plurality of people are in favor of creating articles for 2D rooms, I’m not against it, but I think it may be difficult with most names being conjectural at best.

Overall, though, I agree with Peabody that most of the articles called into question should remain intact, as they do not negatively affect the Wiki at all. Really generic ones like “power cables” can probably be removed, but the majority I think are doing no harm by continuing to exist. --Dr. Anonymous1 (talk) 06:57, February 27, 2019 (UTC)
 * As more room pages get created, it's likely we'd make navigation templates for them as we have with the Prime rooms. Peabody's already prepared such templates, and I overhauled the BOTTLE SHIP template to serve such a purpose. If a reader searches for one of the named rooms in Other M (for example, Room MW, BOTTLE SHIP Residential Area or Subterranean Control Room), they can then use that to determine which "descriptively" rooms are which. The item lists can also link to room pages. "Descriptive" names can be used if they make sense, and otherwise we can use conjectural ones. Again, I wanted to avoid doing that as much as I could, but some titles will not make sense (like "Room full of Zebesians" - the room where the Ice Beam is authorized).


 * I don't agree with merging Power cables. We could turn that into a general page for cable technology in the series, as we have with Fish, which documents harmless scenery fish in MP1, MP2, MOM and MSR. They would be different species, but they have similar behavior and it doesn't make sense to split them up. I was planning to do similar general pages for pistons and turbines, since there are lots of examples of those in the Prime series. <font face="Calibri" style="font-size:15px;"> R o y b o y X (complaints/records) 18:16, February 27, 2019 (UTC)